We Are Not A Vegetarian Species

While talking with non veggies we get a lot of questions. This forum is to finding the best answers to those questions.
User avatar
FatalError
corpse eater
Posts: 14
Joined: Mar 27, 2003 6:16 am

We Are Not A Vegetarian Species

Postby FatalError » Mar 27, 2003 2:04 pm

Vegetarianism is unnatural.

This is not a modern finding. The Bible gives us evidence of this, and clues that vegetarianism was not regarded with favor. In Genesis , Chapter Four, Eve bears Cain and Abel. 'And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.'

That 'but' in the middle of the sentence is the first clue to disapproval. This disapproval is confirmed by verses three to five. Abel and Cain bring offerings to God: Abel of his sheep and Cain, the fruits of the ground. God, we are told, had respect for Abel's carnivorous offering, but He had no respect for Cain's vegetarian one.

The Bible, however, can only give an indication of the feeling of the time in which it was written. It does not provide a convincing answer to the question of what we really should eat. Are we a carnivorous, omnivorous or vegetarian species?

The answer to that question lies in our past, but not the immediate past.

The way we live now is based on advanced agriculture and the domestication of plants and animals. This is a very recent invention: we cannot have adapted to it yet. To determine what foods are likely to make up an ideal diet for us as a species, we must look further back, at our evolutionary history.

For the food we have adapted to and should eat now is not a matter for current dietary fads, it is determined by what we have adapted to over millions of years and is coded in our genes.

We can trace Man's evolution from remains found in Africa and other parts of the world of early hominids dated as long ago as five and a half million years (5) . We have fossilized bone records of both man and animals. We have found stone tools and implements that must have been used for killing and cutting flesh or for grinding plants. We even have found hominid feces.

These findings have led to a great deal of speculation. Are we a carnivorous, omnivorous or a herbivorous species?

We call our ancestors and the various modern primitive tribes, 'hunter-gatherers'. In the world today, some tribes live exclusively on meat and fish. Others live largely on fruit, nuts and roots, although meat is also highly prized. It is obvious, therefore, that we can survive on a wide variety of foods.

User avatar
AndyBa
Vegan Zealot
Posts: 892
Joined: May 27, 2001 12:00 am
Contact:

Postby AndyBa » Feb 19, 2005 1:08 pm

Some info from the Christian Vegetarian Association

Bible supports vegetarianism and veganism

The Bible depicts vegetarianism as God's ideal, and the diet conforms to the central biblical principle of steward ship. In Eden, all creatures live in peace, and God told humans and animals to eat only foods of plant origin (Genesis 1:29-31). Several prophecies as Isaiah 11:6-9, foresee a return to this vegetarian world, where the wolf, lamb, lion, cow, bear, snake, and child all coexist peacefully. Christian vegetarians, while acknowledging human sinfulness, believe to be directed to the harmonious world Isaiah intended-to try to live according to the prayer Jesus taught us: "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as in heaven "(Matthew 6:10).

Why God create animals

"Adam's dominion" over animals (Genesis 1:26, 28), we believe, conveys sacred administration, since God immediately prescribed a vegetarian diet (1:29-30) in a God who is "very good "(1: 31). Created in God's image of love (1 John 4:8), are called to be caretakers of God's Creation, not tyrants over God's creatures.

Genesis 1:21-22 tells that before God created mankind, God considers animals "good" and blessed them. Further evidence that the animals must be considered as valuable in itself comes from Genesis 2:18-19, which states that God created animals as Adam's helpers and companions, "the Lord said, 'It is not good the man should be alone will make him a helper fit for him. "Thus, from the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of heaven, and took the man to see what he would call ..." (KJV). Adam named the animals, which we believe shows concern and friendship. Do not name the animals we eat.

God endowed pigs, cattle, sheep, and all farm animals with their own desires and needs, which is evident when these animals are given the opportunity to enjoy life. For example, pigs are as curious, social and intelligent as cats or dogs. Pigs can even play some video games better than monkeys. Similarly, chickens enjoy one another's company and love to play, dust bathe and forage for food. Jesus compared his love for us to love a hen gathers her chicks (Luke 13:34).

Why God gives permission to Noah to eat meat (Genesis 9:2-4)?

Virtually all plants were destroyed by the flood. Alternatively, God may have allowed Noah limited freedom to express human violence, since unrestrained violence was responsible for the flood itself (Genesis 6:11-13). Significantly, this passage neither meat nor command indicates that the practice is God's ideal. In fact, consumption of meat came with a curse, the animals would no longer be humanity's friends: "The fear that you and the fear that will take place all animals ..." (Genesis 9:2). While meat consumption was not prohibited, it represented a break with God's ideal of animals and humans living together in peace, as shown in Eden and the Prophets.


And here are my thoughts:
Vegetarianism may be unnatural near the poles, where the temperature is too low to allow vegetables and fruits to grow.
But more to the south it is more than natural. And you don't have to analyze past to see this.
Just go and live there in natural i.e wild conditions, naked without any tools.
I can bet that you will rather go and search for some growing vegetables and fruits than try to catch some animals.

User avatar
Sagecreek
Vegan Forum Beginner
Posts: 5
Joined: Aug 2, 2005 11:27 pm
Location: Northern Idaho

Postby Sagecreek » Aug 2, 2005 11:50 pm

We have been eating meat as far back as we have been walking on two feet. Why do we have canine teeth if not to eat meat?

Scott

User avatar
Dodic
Vegan Talk Frequenter
Posts: 42
Joined: Mar 27, 2003 8:03 am

Postby Dodic » Aug 3, 2005 9:18 am

Sagecreek wrote:We have been eating meat as far back as we have been walking on two feet.

Really? And where did you get this information from?

Sagecreek wrote:Why do we have canine teeth if not to eat meat?

Vegetarian Monkeys and Apes have more developed canine teeth and they don't eat meat.
Image

Canine teeth are useful for biting fruits and vegetables as well.
I would like to see you using your canine teeth on raw meat of some wild animal. I don't think you will bite through a deer skin for example.

User avatar
rujoon
Vegan Forum Beginner
Posts: 6
Joined: Sep 21, 2005 12:36 pm

Postby rujoon » Sep 21, 2005 12:50 pm


User avatar
frondescence
Vegan Forum Beginner
Posts: 2
Joined: Nov 26, 2006 9:50 pm

Postby frondescence » Nov 26, 2006 10:27 pm

What the heck is a "Vegetarian Monkey"?

User avatar
AndyBa
Vegan Zealot
Posts: 892
Joined: May 27, 2001 12:00 am
Contact:

Postby AndyBa » Dec 3, 2006 12:10 am

frondescence wrote:What the heck is a "Vegetarian Monkey"?

monkeys that don't eat meat or other animal products :lol:

BigBecka
Lord of the posts
Posts: 513
Joined: Dec 2, 2006 7:53 pm

Postby BigBecka » Dec 5, 2006 10:59 pm

I'm a bit freaked out at using the bible as a historical source... :-?

While humans do seem to have developed as omnivores, it's highly debatable whether anyone needs the large amounts of meat of dairy that consitute a modern western diet. Is it possible humans were meant to scavenge meat as a last resort when vegetation was not plentiful, not the other way round?

Most of the modern research I've read supports vegeatarianism. In the UK, Heart disease is the biggest killer, and it's attributed to obesity and smoking. Obesity related cancers are also on the increase. The obesity is generally a result of Britain's traditionally high animal fat diet, and there's a lot of advertising aimed at getting people to use vegetable oils, eat more fruit and veg, etc. Meat subsitutes like quorn are becoming popular amoung health-conscious meat-eaters.

Eating red meat has also been linked to bowel cancer. Consumption of red meat and animal protein was linked with an increased risk of breast cancer in pre-menopausal women. Diets rich in meat protein lead to more uric acid in the urine, which can cause kidney stones. Milk protein leads to higher levels of cholesterol and fats in the blood than soy protein.
The links below are for the vegan society, who are admittedly not impartial. But they do in turn reference scientific research.
http://www.vegansociety.com/phpws/index ... &ANN_id=72
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/n ... rotein.php

[b]World Health Organisation recommendations:[/b]
Reduce consumption of preserved and
red meat.
Increase fibre and potassium intake from
fruit, vegetables and whole grains.
Cut saturated fat intake (mostly from milk
and meat) from the current UK average of
about 14% to less than 10% by reducing
consumption of fat from dairy and meat.
Include healthful fats, such as flaxseed or
hempseed oil.

MomoPeach
Advanced Vegan Talker
Posts: 80
Joined: Sep 9, 2006 1:52 am

Postby MomoPeach » Jan 19, 2007 12:39 am

Of course the Bible's a historical source, the most important one.
The slow people you come across on the Internet these days....
What else could be a historical source anyway? Some "artifact" or "document"? Put all your trust in some random item you find in the ground or in a cave, when you could just flip to Genesis?

BigBecka
Lord of the posts
Posts: 513
Joined: Dec 2, 2006 7:53 pm

Postby BigBecka » Jan 19, 2007 8:06 pm

Hokey Dokey...
First, I'll cross reference this to my other post on the bible, which actually seems to promote vegetarianism.
veggie-faq/the-killing-animals-for-food-not-morally-wrong-t85.html

Like I say, you can use the bible to support most arguements. Looking at it objectively, as a historical resource it isn't that reliable. All historical sources must be assessed: who wrote them, where and when, so that we can judge whether they are likely to be biased. We don't know the original authors of the bible - we just know that it has been heavily edited to the point that there is now hundreds of different versions. And that's before we get into off-topic discussions about religion being used to control the population...

I appreciate that the bible carries added meaning for members of Judao-Christian religions, but most of the Christians I know don't take the bible literally as a source. Especially not in a discussion with atheists and people of other religions!

And I don't appreciate being called slow, thank you very much!

MomoPeach
Advanced Vegan Talker
Posts: 80
Joined: Sep 9, 2006 1:52 am

Postby MomoPeach » Jan 20, 2007 7:45 am

Especially not in a discussion with atheists and people of other religions!


The Bible is always going to be right, whether I'm around atheists and people of other religions or not. It's not like the words change before my eyes when a non-Christian enters the room. If they don't believe it they don't believe it, but it's all true no matter what those people believe.

And you said the Bible is not reliable?

Are you serious? If it is the Word of God it's more reliable than you could imagine.

It's not like you even know who wrote your little "historical sources and documents" either! A paper can be signed "Thomas Jefferson", but some kid could have written it for all we know cause we weren't there. You can look at "ancient cave inscriptions" and think they were made by hunter-gatherers, but for all you know some dumb tourist could have done it. You always have to guess, hope, infer, and estimate with other historical sources, artifacts, and documents, but with the Bible you know that every word is completely true down to the punctuation because it is the Word of God.

Simple as that.

BigBecka
Lord of the posts
Posts: 513
Joined: Dec 2, 2006 7:53 pm

Postby BigBecka » Jan 20, 2007 6:26 pm

I agree with you that every source has to be questioned and treated with scepticism. Yes, many sources are not what they seem to be; there have been heavily publicised hoaxes (such as the Turin Shroud) and cases where evidence has not been what it first appears to be (medieval artifacts turning out to be victorian copies!).

I am simply stating that if the same process of questioning is applied to the bible, it is just as unreliable. You have to have faith to believe that the bible is the word of god, and faith is not part of an objective investigation.

I am quite sure that everything in the bible is true to you, but you cannot expect other people to alter their lifestyles because of your beliefs.

meign
AR Knight
Posts: 2229
Joined: Sep 15, 2010 8:55 am

Re: We Are Not A Vegetarian Species

Postby meign » Sep 28, 2010 8:54 am

I can only say one thing... being vegetarian is a choice... so what if we choose to be vegetarian... do we affect others?

User avatar
CircularMotion
Advanced Vegan Talker
Posts: 52
Joined: Oct 8, 2010 11:43 am
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
Contact:

Re: We Are Not A Vegetarian Species

Postby CircularMotion » Oct 8, 2010 11:45 am

Can you catch and kill a wild animal with your bare hands, and eat it raw, with your bare teeth? Because if humans have been eating animals since the time they could stand, that's what they'd have been doing.


It takes tools to do these things, and people have not always had tools.

User avatar
AndyBa
Vegan Zealot
Posts: 892
Joined: May 27, 2001 12:00 am
Contact:

Re: We Are Not A Vegetarian Species

Postby AndyBa » Oct 8, 2010 11:16 pm

Nice one, CircularMotion!
Welcome to the forums! :)

meign
AR Knight
Posts: 2229
Joined: Sep 15, 2010 8:55 am

Re: We Are Not A Vegetarian Species

Postby meign » Oct 15, 2010 6:52 am

CircularMotion wrote:Can you catch and kill a wild animal with your bare hands, and eat it raw, with your bare teeth? Because if humans have been eating animals since the time they could stand, that's what they'd have been doing.


It takes tools to do these things, and people have not always had tools.


Well said CircularMotion... Maybe no one will ever try to kill then eat those animals...

Sewn
Vegan Forum Guest
Posts: 11
Joined: Nov 18, 2010 6:09 pm

Re: We Are Not A Vegetarian Species

Postby Sewn » Nov 19, 2010 3:18 pm

It takes tools to do these things, and people have not always had tools.


Sure, it takes a spear or a stickbow or a pointy rock for us to kill an animal quickly and easily. I mean, we could kill them with our bare hands (like other primates do) but it would be more difficult. Not to mention more messy.

You know what also takes tools to do?

To grind grass seeds (like wheat) you need a mill, or at the very least two hard objects.

To soak legumes you need a container to store the water.

Would you give up wheat and legumes based on this information? Is it any different from the tool use used in hunting?

User avatar
CircularMotion
Advanced Vegan Talker
Posts: 52
Joined: Oct 8, 2010 11:43 am
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
Contact:

Re: We Are Not A Vegetarian Species

Postby CircularMotion » Nov 21, 2010 1:53 pm

Sewn wrote:
It takes tools to do these things, and people have not always had tools.


Sure, it takes a spear or a stickbow or a pointy rock for us to kill an animal quickly and easily. I mean, we could kill them with our bare hands (like other primates do) but it would be more difficult. Not to mention more messy.

You know what also takes tools to do?

To grind grass seeds (like wheat) you need a mill, or at the very least two hard objects.

To soak legumes you need a container to store the water.

Would you give up wheat and legumes based on this information? Is it any different from the tool use used in hunting?


Of course not. And I'm not giving up meat based on the assumption that we didn't always eat it, either. That's not my reasoning at all. I'm merely making an argument for people who say that we have always eaten meat. We always haven't eaten grains and legumes, either. Our bodies and diets at the time of our "beginning" was different from now, as were our habitats.

loopslike
Vegan Forum Visitor
Posts: 7
Joined: Nov 11, 2010 6:50 am
Contact:

Re: We Are Not A Vegetarian Species

Postby loopslike » Nov 28, 2010 5:46 am

Everything in this world is not same. Every man of this world has different nature. Their food habit is also different. Some like flesh, some like fish and some like vegetable. But modern health science give more importance on vegetable. So those people are vegetarian are well enough in health than non-vegetarian.I am also a vegetarian so my speech may be against of non-vegetarian. Please don't mind.

adam1984
Vegan Forum noob
Posts: 1
Joined: Nov 26, 2010 10:49 am

Re: We Are Not A Vegetarian Species

Postby adam1984 » Nov 30, 2010 12:59 pm

What annoys me is the way that some vegetarians look down on me because i eat meat. I will not be apologetic for eating meat, i do however try to avoid factory farmed foods.

User avatar
CircularMotion
Advanced Vegan Talker
Posts: 52
Joined: Oct 8, 2010 11:43 am
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
Contact:

Re: We Are Not A Vegetarian Species

Postby CircularMotion » Nov 30, 2010 2:29 pm

adam1984 wrote:What annoys me is the way that some vegetarians look down on me because i eat meat. I will not be apologetic for eating meat, i do however try to avoid factory farmed foods.



Even if they do hold this opinion, it is their responsibility to keep their opinions to themselves. :) Each person has their own opinion, and while personally we may feel one way or another, and that it is important to educate and share with people who are willing to learn, it isn't the greatest to force one opinion on someone else or to make them feel bad about it.

I think the only way someone could every avoid factory farmed foods, however, is by being vegan, or by owning your own farm and never buying any pre-packed products [you know the sort found in the middle of the grocery store aisles.]

meateatereater
Active Vegan Talker
Posts: 22
Joined: Nov 30, 2010 2:08 pm
Contact:

.

Postby meateatereater » Nov 30, 2010 2:38 pm

.
Last edited by meateatereater on Jan 18, 2019 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
CircularMotion
Advanced Vegan Talker
Posts: 52
Joined: Oct 8, 2010 11:43 am
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
Contact:

Re: We Are Not A Vegetarian Species

Postby CircularMotion » Nov 30, 2010 6:30 pm

meateatereater wrote:If I could, I'd kick your face in and slit your throat for killing & eating my friends...
...but then some other meat eater would throw me in jail.


It's because of brash violent statements like this one, that people will not listen to what we as Vegans and Vegetarians have to say about the state of our food system.

Being kind and open to teaching [as opposed to throat slitting] is the way to open peoples eyes as to what is really going on.


So thank you, for furthering this reputation of ignorance.

meateatereater
Active Vegan Talker
Posts: 22
Joined: Nov 30, 2010 2:08 pm
Contact:

.

Postby meateatereater » Nov 30, 2010 11:14 pm

.
Last edited by meateatereater on Jan 18, 2019 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
CircularMotion
Advanced Vegan Talker
Posts: 52
Joined: Oct 8, 2010 11:43 am
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
Contact:

Re: We Are Not A Vegetarian Species

Postby CircularMotion » Dec 1, 2010 12:19 am

meateatereater wrote:
CircularMotion wrote:It's because of brash violent statements like this one, that people will not listen to what we as Vegans and Vegetarians have to say about the state of our food system.

They arent listening anyways.

And veganism isnt about kindness to me, Its about respect. The perfect example is: Your condescending to me, but your probably engaging in "kind" conversation with meat eaters. Am I correct? I don't care what people like you think of me. Passive & squishy. You'd probably try and peace-talk your way out of being tortured and murdered yourself right? pfft!


That's not true at all. Some are listening. I was not always vegan, so clearly I listened.

You have to have respect for people to have them have respect for you. Intolerance doesn't go far. Because I don't have religious views, or because I enjoy a lot of the principles of Buddhism, should I slit the throats of everyone else? No. You talk about meat-eaters like they are a different species. They are probably your co-workers, your doctors, your service works and your family. I fail to see how I am passive.

meateatereater
Active Vegan Talker
Posts: 22
Joined: Nov 30, 2010 2:08 pm
Contact:

.

Postby meateatereater » Dec 3, 2010 9:13 am

.
Last edited by meateatereater on Jan 18, 2019 10:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
CircularMotion
Advanced Vegan Talker
Posts: 52
Joined: Oct 8, 2010 11:43 am
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
Contact:

Re: We Are Not A Vegetarian Species

Postby CircularMotion » Dec 3, 2010 12:51 pm

meateatereater wrote:
CircularMotion wrote:That's not true at all. Some are listening. I was not always vegan, so clearly I listened.

You have to have respect for people to have them have respect for you. Intolerance doesn't go far. Because I don't have religious views, or because I enjoy a lot of the principles of Buddhism, should I slit the throats of everyone else? No. You talk about meat-eaters like they are a different species. They are probably your co-workers, your doctors, your service works and your family. I fail to see how I am passive.

Wanna know how I turned vegan? I was dumped by this beautiful ballerina goddess because I didn't become vegan fast enuff for her. It ruined me I went insane depressed for a long time. That made me react in such a way that in order to understand why this happened to me I had to look into it more. Once I found the human-animal connection underneath all the commercially processed food labels I totally got it, cuz I've always loved animals as companions; it didnt take much for me to "get it". I basically found veganism via rejection. So you cannot tell me it doesnt work because I'm walking proof it does. Anyways, whats with giving respect to someone, where if you were a cow, they would relish your murder and eat you and in turn; turn you into a log of greasy turd that oozes out their behind. Then they repeat the process unto your friends. Also respect is mine to give and take as I please. Thank you. When i turned vegan there wasn't soymilk on the shelves. There wasnt much info out there. Today's people do not have that excuse; at all. Its really pathetic that census says .02 of the world population is vegan; even with all this info and product out there. the non vegan population gain more and more disrespect from me the more time rolls on. Im in 3rd world Beirut Lebanon as we speak and have been for 2 years now... and I was/am able to be vegan the whole time. So to find people in First-world countries that find it "hard" or whatever is just totally pathetic.


It is frustrating when other people don't see what we see so clearly. :) A lot of people prefer immediate personal gratification [i.e.: going out and eating that smoothie with their friends, NOW] as opposed to the long-term gratification of knowing they're making the right choice.

You may give and take respect as you please, but don't be surprised then when your words to not influence any one to make the vegan switch. People don't like being told that they are 'wrong' about something, and usually it just makes them work even harder against you.

User avatar
Trev
Vegan Talk Frequenter
Posts: 39
Joined: Dec 8, 2010 4:14 am

Re: We Are Not A Vegetarian Species

Postby Trev » Dec 9, 2010 3:23 am

Man i hate trolls! never have i been a member in a forum that attracts so many damn trolls. NO doubt it's b/c these people have no life lol and have to come pick on us noble vegetarians and vegans. So much negativity in people's hearts nowadays, where's the love gone? lol i'm no hippy but i don't think there use to be this many dicks in the world. (i'm aware this troll started the thread 7 years ago) :brilsmurf:
Last edited by Trev on Dec 9, 2010 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Trev
Vegan Talk Frequenter
Posts: 39
Joined: Dec 8, 2010 4:14 am

Re: We Are Not A Vegetarian Species

Postby Trev » Dec 9, 2010 3:25 am

meateatereater wrote:
CircularMotion wrote:That's not true at all. Some are listening. I was not always vegan, so clearly I listened.

You have to have respect for people to have them have respect for you. Intolerance doesn't go far. Because I don't have religious views, or because I enjoy a lot of the principles of Buddhism, should I slit the throats of everyone else? No. You talk about meat-eaters like they are a different species. They are probably your co-workers, your doctors, your service works and your family. I fail to see how I am passive.

Wanna know how I turned vegan? I was dumped by this beautiful ballerina goddess because I didn't become vegan fast enuff for her. It ruined me I went insane depressed for a long time. That made me react in such a way that in order to understand why this happened to me I had to look into it more. Once I found the human-animal connection underneath all the commercially processed food labels I totally got it, cuz I've always loved animals as companions; it didnt take much for me to "get it". I basically found veganism via rejection. So you cannot tell me it doesnt work because I'm walking proof it does. Anyways, whats with giving respect to someone, where if you were a cow, they would relish your murder and eat you and in turn; turn you into a log of greasy turd that oozes out their behind. Then they repeat the process unto your friends. Also respect is mine to give and take as I please. Thank you. When i turned vegan there wasn't soymilk on the shelves. There wasnt much info out there. Today's people do not have that excuse; at all. Its really pathetic that census says .02 of the world population is vegan; even with all this info and product out there. the non vegan population gain more and more disrespect from me the more time rolls on. Im in 3rd world Beirut Lebanon as we speak and have been for 2 years now... and I was/am able to be vegan the whole time. So to find people in First-world countries that find it "hard" or whatever is just totally pathetic.


have you contacted the ballerina goddess since going vegan? :oops:
Last edited by Trev on Dec 10, 2010 1:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

meateatereater
Active Vegan Talker
Posts: 22
Joined: Nov 30, 2010 2:08 pm
Contact:

.

Postby meateatereater » Dec 9, 2010 11:30 pm

.
Last edited by meateatereater on Jan 18, 2019 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
CircularMotion
Advanced Vegan Talker
Posts: 52
Joined: Oct 8, 2010 11:43 am
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
Contact:

Re: We Are Not A Vegetarian Species

Postby CircularMotion » Dec 10, 2010 4:36 pm

meateatereater wrote:Circular.... I could give a shit less what you think of me.

I have more respect for the dead cows, then the people that killed them.


I.... didn't say anything at all about what I thought about you, at the very least not in that post. :/
I agree with most of what you're saying just not the manner in which you are saying it. :)
I also have a ton of respect for the animals that are slaughtered to please desire-driven animal product based diets where people do not think beyond their initial wants to the consequences of their actions. :(


 


  • RELATED_TOPICS
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “Veggie Questions and Answers”