Monsanto

Pro vegan science. News, facts and simple philosophical talk. Discuss the philosophy and ethics of veganism.
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wude
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Monsanto

Postby wude » Sep 26, 2010 8:26 pm

:stop: Monsanto
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wude
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Re: Monsanto

Postby wude » Sep 28, 2010 2:23 pm

:alien: .
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AndyBa
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Re: Monsanto

Postby AndyBa » Oct 8, 2010 10:40 pm

hi wude
What is the point of these posts?

wildsyrinx
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Re: Monsanto

Postby wildsyrinx » Oct 27, 2010 7:25 pm

"What is the point of these posts?"

Chilling reality that all species survival is in the hands of an international chemical corporation that has genetically modified our food which is altering our body cells, and who knows what else. Yet, we continue to ask "...what is the point."

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Re: Monsanto

Postby clearwood » Mar 20, 2011 5:21 pm

Chilling reality that all species survival is in the hands of an international chemical corporation that has genetically modified our food which is altering our body cells, and who knows what else.

very good! So the chemical industry is evil is it? Remember that when some bastard tries to sell you washing-up liquid! Or a plastic bag!
It's very sad that the green movement in general is so anti-science. GM food is by far the most powerful tool in the hands of agricultural science, and is directly helping increase yields on marginal land. It's great fun for us fat westerners to condemn it, but feeding people is a serious business, and needs big business and science on-side.
You might not like it wildsyrinx, but if your children were starving to death, your priorities would be different.

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Re: Monsanto

Postby Dacite » Apr 14, 2011 8:35 am

The greatest fact is that organic agriculture leads to better yields. Experiments and science finally are done.

“We won’t solve hunger and stop climate change with industrial farming on large plantations,” Olivier De Schutter, United Nations Special Rapporteur and author of the report “Agro-ecology and the Right to Food”, said in a press release. “The solution lies in supporting small-scale farmers’ knowledge and experimentation, and in raising incomes of smallholders so as to contribute to rural development.”

Organic agriculture protects soil, does not pollute water and ensures biodiversity.

Lets all opt for organic produce whenever it is possible!

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Re: Monsanto

Postby AdamD » Apr 28, 2011 9:58 am

http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/07/ ... ZJ20090729

This article as well as the study itself (it's interesting, read it) details how organic food has no nutritional o environmental benefits.

I'm sorry but the science just isn't there supporting organic food and if you're willing to ignore the apparent facts to further some kind of vegan agenda then you need to take a good look at yourself.

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Re: Monsanto

Postby Dacite » Apr 28, 2011 8:04 pm

The science today as well pharmaceutical science is ordered and bought.
Pesticide companies belong to BIG OIL, pharmaceutical companies belong to BIG OIL etc.

Only independent science is real science.

I am glad that at least UN in recent years have started real thinking not only listening to lobbyists.

Based on an extensive review of recent scientific research, the report demonstrates that agro-ecology, if sufficiently supported, can double food production in entire regions within 10 years while mitigating climate change and alleviating rural poverty.

Even if one does not believe in more nutrients in ripe, organic foods, they do taste hundred times better.

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Re: Monsanto

Postby AdamD » May 2, 2011 1:15 pm

Claiming that organic food tastes better is subjective and contains not even a shred of argumentative merit.

Would you please provide a source to back up your claims that science as we know it is a lie and that the UN has figured it out.

Also what report are you referring to that "demonstrates that agro-ecology, if sufficiently supported, can double food production in entire regions within 10 years while mitigating climate change and alleviating rural poverty."?
You need to provide sources if you're going to make specific claims like that.

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Re: Monsanto

Postby Dacite » May 2, 2011 8:05 pm

http://www.srfood.org/index.php/en/comp ... ht-to-food

And please do not be naive what all the chemicals are doing to the people who are first working in the chemical sprayed fields, then to people who are eating it. Somehow even conventional doctors advise pregnant women to opt for organic food, why would the pesticide,herbicide, artificial mineral fertilized can do any good for any person...

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Re: Monsanto

Postby AdamD » May 4, 2011 2:05 pm

It's interesting that agro ecology can double food production but agro ecology goes far beyond mere organic food. Agro ecology is a huge shift in focus for farming over abroad range of fields so it is misleading to claim that this report explicitly supports organic food. I'm not saying that you have Dacite, I'm just saying that agro ecology does not equate to organic or an entirely vegetarian diet. As for what chemicals are doing to people, general trends have shown that the human life expectancy is getting longer not shorter, I suppose that gives some indication as the the effect of "all the chemicals".

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Re: Monsanto

Postby Dacite » May 4, 2011 6:34 pm

What are the environmental benefits of organic agriculture?

Sustainability over the long term. Many changes observed in the environment are long term, occurring slowly over time. Organic agriculture considers the medium- and long-term effect of agricultural interventions on the agro-ecosystem. It aims to produce food while establishing an ecological balance to prevent soil fertility or pest problems. Organic agriculture takes a proactive approach as opposed to treating problems after they emerge.

Soil. Soil building practices such as crop rotations, inter-cropping, symbiotic associations, cover crops, organic fertilizers and minimum tillage are central to organic practices. These encourage soil fauna and flora, improving soil formation and structure and creating more stable systems. In turn, nutrient and energy cycling is increased and the retentive abilities of the soil for nutrients and water are enhanced, compensating for the non-use of mineral fertilizers. Such management techniques also play an important role in soil erosion control. The length of time that the soil is exposed to erosive forces is decreased, soil biodiversity is increased, and nutrient losses are reduced, helping to maintain and enhance soil productivity. Crop export of nutrients is usually compensated by farm-derived renewable resources but it is sometimes necessary to supplement organic soils with potassium, phosphate, calcium, magnesium and trace elements from external sources.

Water. In many agriculture areas, pollution of groundwater courses with synthetic fertilizers and pesticides is a major problem. As the use of these is prohibited in organic agriculture, they are replaced by organic fertilizers (e.g. compost, animal manure, green manure) and through the use of greater biodiversity (in terms of species cultivated and permanent vegetation), enhancing soil structure and water infiltration. Well managed organic systems with better nutrient retentive abilities, greatly reduce the risk of groundwater pollution. In some areas where pollution is a real problem, conversion to organic agriculture is highly encouraged as a restorative measure (e.g. by the Governments of France and Germany).

Air. Organic agriculture reduces non-renewable energy use by decreasing agrochemical needs (these require high quantities of fossil fuel to be produced). Organic agriculture contributes to mitigating the greenhouse effect and global warming through its ability to sequester carbon in the soil. Many management practices used by organic agriculture (e.g. minimum tillage, returning crop residues to the soil, the use of cover crops and rotations, and the greater integration of nitrogen-fixing legumes), increase the return of carbon to the soil, raising productivity and favouring carbon storage.

Biodiversity. Organic farmers are both custodians and users of biodiversity at all levels. At the gene level, traditional and adapted seeds and breeds are preferred for their greater resistance to diseases and their resilience to climatic stress. At the species level, diverse combinations of plants and animals optimize nutrient and energy cycling for agricultural production. At the ecosystem level, the maintenance of natural areas within and around organic fields and absence of chemical inputs create suitable habitats for wildlife. The frequent use of under-utilized species (often as rotation crops to build soil fertility) reduces erosion of agro-biodiversity, creating a healthier gene pool - the basis for future adaptation. The provision of structures providing food and shelter, and the lack of pesticide use, attract new or re-colonizing species to the organic area (both permanent and migratory), including wild flora and fauna (e.g. birds) and organisms beneficial to the organic system such as pollinators and pest predators.

Genetically modified organisms. The use of GMOs within organic systems is not permitted during any stage of organic food production, processing or handling. As the potential impact of GMOs to both the environment and health is not entirely understood, organic agriculture is taking the precautionary approach and choosing to encourage natural biodiversity. The organic label therefore provides an assurance that GMOs have not been used intentionally in the production and processing of the organic products. This is something which cannot be guaranteed in conventional products as labelling the presence of GMOs in food products has not yet come into force in most countries. However, with increasing GMO use in conventional agriculture and due to the method of transmission of GMOs in the environment (e.g. through pollen), organic agriculture will not be able to ensure that organic products are completely GMO free in the future. A detailed discussion on GMOs can be found in the FAO publication "Genetically Modified Organisms, Consumers, Food Safety and the Environment".

Ecological services. The impact of organic agriculture on natural resources favours interactions within the agro-ecosystem that are vital for both agricultural production and nature conservation. Ecological services derived include soil forming and conditioning, soil stabilization, waste recycling, carbon sequestration, nutrients cycling, predation, pollination and habitats. By opting for organic products, the consumer through his/her purchasing power promotes a less polluting agricultural system. The hidden costs of agriculture to the environment in terms of natural resource degradation are reduced. A recent publication by Jules Pretty: "The Real Costs of Modern Farming" examines many of these issues in greater detail.

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Re: Monsanto

Postby AdamD » May 5, 2011 6:27 pm

I have several issues with the block of text you just posted. Off the bat, none of your claims are sourced or substantiated in any way. I don't generally expect sourcing from claims in forums but when you make quite large claims which actually do require some scientific basis it pays to provide sources to increase credibility and separate it from a rant (albeit an eloquent one).

In the first paragraph you state the aims of organic agriculture and that's fine but you then say "Organic agriculture takes a proactive approach as opposed to treating problems after they emerge.", isn't the whole point of many of the pesticides and chemicals that organic agriculture is against to stop observed problems (insect infestation, lack of soil nutrients) from happening in the first place? That sounds proactive to me.

In the second paragraph you begin by mentioning many common farming practices that can be applied to organic and non-organic farms and although I agree with what you say about these effective farming methods it doesn't prove much beyond that these methods are useful. What gets me is where you say "In turn, nutrient and energy cycling is increased and the retentive abilities of the soil for nutrients and water are enhanced, compensating for the non-use of mineral fertilizers.", although all of these methods may add to nutrients in ground and may even altogether add an equal number of nutrients into the ground as non-organic fertilizers; the question looms: Why not use mineral fertilizers on top of that? The second half of this paragraph raises even more questions. You claim that "The length of time that the soil is exposed to erosive forces is decreased, soil biodiversity is increased, and nutrient losses are reduced, helping to maintain and enhance soil productivity.", how? What evidence do you have to prove that using basic farming methods like "crop rotations, inter-cropping, symbiotic associations, cover crops, organic fertilizers and minimum tillage" coupled with non-organic soil treatment and fertilizer effects erosion at all? After this you contradict the whole point of the paragraph above by stating that "it is sometimes necessary to supplement organic soils with potassium, phosphate, calcium, magnesium and trace elements from external sources.", there is no difference between this and using mineral fertilizer.

I almost completely agree with the second paragraph except that farming is inherently invasive to the surrounding area and this paragraph implies that organic farming will somehow not be; which is wrong. Also there are a huge variety of unfounded claims. How does "enhancing soil structure and water infiltration. Well managed organic systems with better nutrient retentive abilities, greatly reduce the risk of groundwater pollution"? And what evidence do you have to prove it?

You claim that "Organic agriculture reduces non-renewable energy use by decreasing agrochemical needs (these require high quantities of fossil fuel to be produced)" yet you ignore the fact that the prime producers of organic manure (livestock) are some of the largest greenhouse producers on the planet(http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/200 ... index.html). Naturally if non organic fertilizers will be reduces than organic forms like cattle and other livestock must be increased to meet the demand thus negating the previous point to a degree. As for the rest of the paragraph the only problem I have is, once again, some unfounded claims like "Many management practices used by organic agriculture (e.g. minimum tillage, returning crop residues to the soil, the use of cover crops and rotations, and the greater integration of nitrogen-fixing legumes), increase the return of carbon to the soil, raising productivity and favouring carbon storage." although this does sound quite credible in itself.

Right from the get go this paragraph makes a huge un-sourced generalization. You claim that "At the gene level, traditional and adapted seeds and breeds are preferred for their greater resistance to diseases and their resilience to climatic stress." however the entire point of gene modification is to make the product more resistant to exactly what you said (as well as increasing yield) so unless you can find some evidence to support your claim logic dictates that it is unlikely for a gene that has not been modified to survive in an environment will survive in an environment better than one that has been modified. You say that "At the species level, diverse combinations of plants and animals optimize nutrient and energy cycling for agricultural production.", claims like this need to be substantiated, where is your evidence to prove that this happens and what are its practical application to agriculture? I find it amusing that in the following quote "The provision of structures providing food and shelter, and the lack of pesticide use, attract new or re-colonizing species to the organic area (both permanent and migratory), including wild flora and fauna (e.g. birds) and organisms beneficial to the organic system such as pollinators and pest predators." you fail to mention that the "provision of structures providing food and shelter, and the lack of pesticide use" will by its very nature attract pests as well, potentially crippling farms until the rest of the ecosystem moves in to prey on said pests.

I agree with most of this paragraph except that you say "he potential impact of GMOs to both the environment and health is not entirely understood", does this mean that when a particular GMO is understood it will be considered 'organic'? Also, grouping all GMOs as "not entirely understood" is a generalization which should be avoided, to be practical GMOs should betaken on a case by case basis.

In what seems to be your summary paragraph you seem to only attempt to reinforce the points you made earlier so I'll just allow you to refer to my problems with those.

In summary, much of what you said is either logically wrong or such a broad generalization that you need to provide evidence to back the claim. Seeing as you have not provided evidence for your claims they are unsubstantiated, and thus can be dismissed insubstantially

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Organic agriculture

Postby Dacite » May 5, 2011 7:38 pm

Source: http://www.fao.org/organicag/oa-faq/oa-faq6/en/

+I have an organic garden myself- a living evidence.

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Re: Monsanto

Postby AdamD » May 8, 2011 1:05 pm

That article was an interesting read to be sure, but it is only one article. Although I trust the FAO, perhaps it would be best to wait and see if more articles pop up in corroboration, maybe then these claims would be definitely worth taking action on.

As for "living evidence", another word for that is anecdotal evidence and it is bad.

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Re: Monsanto

Postby Greginnd » May 27, 2011 2:58 pm

wildsyrinx wrote: Chilling reality that all species survival is in the hands of an international chemical corporation that has genetically modified our food which is altering our body cells, and who knows what else. Yet, we continue to ask "...what is the point."


How exactly do GM foods alter our body's cells? Makes no sense.

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Re: Monsanto

Postby AdamD » Jul 3, 2011 7:10 am

It doesn't have to make sense. He's fear mongering.

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Re: Monsanto

Postby wude » Jul 30, 2011 2:21 pm

:bom:
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Re: Monsanto

Postby wude » Aug 15, 2011 2:55 pm

:flower:
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Re: Monsanto

Postby wude » Aug 15, 2011 9:46 pm

:roll:
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Re: Monsanto

Postby wude » Aug 15, 2011 10:04 pm

:cheese:
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Re: Monsanto

Postby wude » Aug 16, 2011 2:15 pm

:sleepy2:
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Re: Monsanto

Postby wude » Aug 22, 2011 10:27 pm

:smilebox:
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Re: Monsanto

Postby AdamD » Aug 28, 2011 3:04 pm

wude wrote:
AdamD wrote:It doesn't have to make sense. He's fear mongering.



Fear mongering? Come on.

You're the one with the secret agenda if you don't think that Gmo's are dangerously harmful.

I think that bio-dynamic farming should be the agricultural way of the future.

In India, Peter Proctor has had a lot of success reclaiming farms damaged by Monsanto's Roundup herbicide. See: the documentary film "One Man, One Cow, One Planet.)

It was philosopher Rudolph Steiner that said that a farm is like a living organism. Like humans, all of its parts must be must be in proper working order or else it will become sick. Poisonous chemicals make a farm, the environment, animals and ultimately humans sick.


I find it amusing that one moment you talk about how much pesticides and herbicides are damaging the planet then you go on to bash genetically modified crops which may, given time, eliminate the need for pesticides and herbicides.

I suppose that a few people will always protest when new, good science arrives on the block and I suppose they will always have a few strange 'documentaries' to back them up. Such is the way of things.

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Re: Monsanto

Postby wude » Aug 29, 2011 2:40 pm

:colors:
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Re: Monsanto

Postby AdamD » Oct 3, 2011 5:01 am

Your argument relies on correlation. Correlation does not imply causation so all of the above post is moot.

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Re: Monsanto

Postby wude » Oct 4, 2011 3:08 pm

:cyclopsani:
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Re: Monsanto

Postby wude » Oct 4, 2011 7:20 pm

:compress:
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Re: Monsanto

Postby wude » Oct 4, 2011 8:53 pm

:drunken:
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Re: Monsanto

Postby wude » Oct 6, 2011 2:22 pm

:blackeye:
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Re: Monsanto

Postby wude » Oct 6, 2011 5:55 pm

:reindeer:
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Re: Monsanto

Postby wude » Oct 6, 2011 6:03 pm

:albino:
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Re: Monsanto

Postby wude » Oct 8, 2011 7:34 pm

:albino: :albino:
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Re: Monsanto

Postby wude » Oct 9, 2011 5:21 pm

:albino: :albino: :albino: :albino:
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Re: Monsanto

Postby wude » Oct 11, 2011 2:35 pm

:albino: :albino: :albino: :albino: :albino: :albino: :albino: :albino:
Last edited by wude on Feb 1, 2013 4:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Monsanto

Postby wude » Oct 12, 2011 2:19 pm

:evil:
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Re: Monsanto

Postby wude » Oct 12, 2011 3:40 pm

:albino:
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Re: Monsanto

Postby wude » Oct 12, 2011 4:00 pm

:alien:
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Re: Monsanto

Postby wude » Oct 13, 2011 3:00 pm

:albino: :albino: :albino: :albino: :albino: :albino:


Six albino bunnies. What on earth do they want?

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Re: Monsanto

Postby wude » Oct 17, 2012 2:49 pm

:tongue2:


 


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