Vegan Talk Forums

Bybo · Active Vegan Talker Joined: 08 Aug 2004 Posts: 25

Life is something good. Life is something that we shall take care of.
I see the raising of cattle and other animals as a symbios between two species. We give them life, a so good life we can offer.
We give them food shelter medication care.
The animals give us their meat.

(These animals get something they wouldnt be able to get in the wild, they get the chance to live, And that is every species ultimate goal. To survive and spread your own genetics.)

This is a very good for both the animals and the humans.
IF the animals isnt suffering. that is. What ive seen with my one eye (meaning not on tv and alike, with your own eyes !) is that animals mostly is living a good life, sure there are moments when the animals dont "like" things. For example if you should medicate a animal. Medication is not always something that tasts good and the way to get the medication in the animal is not always without temporary pain. But this is for the animals own good and we got the same in ower lives. Doesnt we need medication ? Doesnt we get hurt ?

Of course the slaughter of an animals should be quick and without any pain.I really belive that the moment of death for animals are unexpected and they dont need to suffer.

This is somewhat of my ethics about eating meat and why i think its right to eat meat.

Sergio · Vegan Talk Veteran Joined: 24 May 2001 Posts: 224

I will give you a quote from here:
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If we didn't raise animals for food, then they would never have had the chance to be born and experience life at all.

Considering how the vast majority of farm animals are currently raised in modern industrialized agriculture, these animals would have been far better off never having been born. The best moment in these animals lives is when they finally die, because only then does their suffering finally end.

However, if the animals are raised and slaughtered humanely, some would say that it is better for the animals to have experienced life for a brief time before slaughter, rather than never have been born at all. My response to this is the following.

Once an individual is born, we have the same obligation to act ethically toward them as we do towards everyone else. This is not changed by the fact that the individual would have never been born in the first place without our intervention. This is the reason that child abuse is immoral. Even though the child would have never existed without his parents, this does not give his parents the right to physically abuse him.

If we hypothetically lived in a cannibalistic society which bred and raised a race of humans for food, then we would be correct in condemning this practice, even though without it, these humans would have never existed in the first place.

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Bybo · Active Vegan Talker Joined: 08 Aug 2004 Posts: 25

Sergio · Vegan Talk Veteran Joined: 24 May 2001 Posts: 224

Bybo · Active Vegan Talker Joined: 08 Aug 2004 Posts: 25

AndyBa · Lord of the posts Joined: 27 May 2001 Posts: 670

AndyBa · Lord of the posts Joined: 27 May 2001 Posts: 670

Bybo, one small question.
You are talking so much about good conditions and such.
Would you personally go to a prison with very good conditions? And why?

You mentioned pigs killing their offsprings...
I don't think it's a 100% rule.
It happens in human families as well and it doesn't mean that we have to send all people to prisons and castrate them after a certain age.

_________________
Andy`Ba

The human body has no more need for cows' milk than it does for dogs' milk, horses' milk, or giraffes' milk. ~Michael Klaper, M.D., author of Vegan Nutrition: Pure & Simple

Masha · Posted: Mar 10, 2005 4:34 pm Post subject:

That's what I was talking about - self deception.

What can allow one man enslave the other?
I think these are the same things that allow human enslave other animals.

Anyone know what slave owners were saying to defend their honor? I'm almost sure they were saying things like: Slaves can't live without us, they will destroy the city. Slaves have no culture. They will kill each other. They are wild. We give them shelter.. etc.

Cafemomo · Posted: May 31, 2005 6:13 pm Post subject: New

My english is at development, so sorry.
Perhaps I`m influenced by my religious belief, but here it goes, to show we can have some respect for bible... (some frases are bible excerpts? I don`t remember the quote)(I`ll put them later)

Deciding to eat meat or no will have an effect in other life issues. Since man creation, some things have changed. For example: when some person kills another, we get him into prison, altough the solution justice gives is death. We cannot criticize that death (because of justice, or that the person assasinated was , for example, a son to us), but we also cannot abogue for live always (some would think countries don`t have the right to apply that justice, that we all are sinners, and all lives belong to God).
I write this to show things have changed in some ways that we definitely can`t control. The bible says that in Jermiah 10:23.
Bible appears to show that mankind was, at the beggining, vegetarian. This changed after the flood. So nobody can say Cain killed Abel although he was vegetarian (they both were). This only an example, not a law. It shows that it is not what we eat, but what we are: imperfect.
Bible also says there will be a Paradise. If this new Paradise is like the other, we and the animals will be vegetarian again. So we can imagine this paradise having no animals in cages.
If we are, or expect to become, vegans, we have to question ourselves ¿Do I have a bird in a cage? I saw in TV a man that was kidnapped (Colombia) that had before 60 cages whit birds. When he was released, he released them too, because he said freedom was the best thing we could have. ¿do we let criminals escape because freedom is so "valuable"?¿Can you see that this decision affect other issues?
But if we don`t put some limits between we and the animals, wouldn`t it result in more kills by animals, more diseases, and so on? That is a thing we cannot change, because we are imperfect.
If we are vegans that CRITICIZE people who eat meat ¿do we have at the walls photographs of our sons, showing that we are proud of them because they are in the military? If we are vegans, we don`t go to war to kill other people because he attacks my country (an obligation we didn`t asked, but we say we have because we were born at that country). Did UEA have the right to kill 200000 japanese in Hiroshima? ¿Did Japanese have the right to kill chinese people in their own land? ¿Do i have the right to kick someone because he eats meat and has some animals?
With all my heart i hate wars, hurting people, and that is why my complete life is oriented towards having no guns and, if i could, i would destroy them all. I can`t. So it is a philosophy, noy only a health or animal love matter.
And people who eats meet, eat it because animals have a quick death? That`s a good excuse, because God said we must be merciful with animals altough we are diferent to them. But ¿how you define quick?. So, although things have changed, everything points to a Paradise, directed by God, with peace between all beings.
There are a lot of examples that animals can live with humans (elsa the lioness, who made her owner feel she was "in the limits of paradise"), like in paradise.
God gave us vegetation as food. Maybe that`s why, if next is true, we are more healthy eating vegetables and fruit. It is a example of making a machine to work with the best possible material. It seems vegetables are more healthy (have not read magazines lately).
But God gave us permission, and sometimes the order, to eat meat. If we are vegans in a war, a land devastated by war, and we are hungry, wouldn`t we eat some rat, the first thing we see? God knew some really bad things would happen to us (like famine and eartquakes), so he gave permission to eat meat. This profecies are in Matthew 24.
The fact is that God permits a lot of things that are not the best, but we cannot change (example: living in cities is not the best, because we have to use unefficient bathrooms, paper and TVs that destroy rivers, forests and animal life) (PD: God sees cities, the human most influenced environment, with bad eyes. He gave the order to fill the earth in Gènesis 1:28)
So the best is: have no animal in cages, be no in military, don criticize death sentences, don`t participate in raging protests, don`t criticize each other, don`t expect to change people`s mind so easily, and, if you are extreme, don`t live in cities. ¿Are you prepared to make all this changes?
¿So, don`t do anything? If it will have an inmediate effect in the complete earth without hurting anyone, then do it. ¿Can you?
That`s the solution God gives in the bible. He can make it for the whole earth with animals included. Read Revelation 21:3,4

I am still thinking vegetables are better, like in paradise, and I have thought of becoming vegan... but sometimes I think eagles hunting and eating are so beautiful, that they show God`s creation in all its expression...
(at last) I do eat meat, but I do hope, not to have to let her, but that God will take the best option, that he will satisfy all creation`s desire.. If i have to let some things because of god decision, like enjoying meat`s juice, i will let them

WarChild · Passionated Vegan Talker Joined: 25 Feb 2006 Posts: 193

AndyBa · Lord of the posts Joined: 27 May 2001 Posts: 670

Actually in those countries domestic animals are treated better then in countries where intensive farming is developed.
_________________
Andy`Ba

The human body has no more need for cows' milk than it does for dogs' milk, horses' milk, or giraffes' milk. ~Michael Klaper, M.D., author of Vegan Nutrition: Pure & Simple